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Metallica vs. Napster/ are we listening?

Topic started by suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on Wed May 3 01:04:12 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Just as we angrily debate the ethics of copying in TFM, are we not just as culpable of copyright violation by streaming songs off the net? I can understand that where rare songs (e.g. Eera Vizhi Kaaviyangal) are involved, there might be a case for such sharing, but what about the widespread availability of recent hits or fresh releases on diff. songs pages?

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Responses:

• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Wed May 3 01:22:02 EDT 2000
  
  friends
  
  my concern is that just as TFM as a forum enjoys the participation of many brilliant and original thinkers/ music-lovers/ musicians, isn't it time for all concerned to draw a code of ethics and expect atleast those who believe in the essence of this forum, to abide by it and avoid showcasing endless song-lists? i don't foresee an IR (maybe ARR would, given his techno-friendlieness) acting against such song- swapping, but maybe raajangham must take the lead aggressively as far as he's concerned (provided they have the mandate to do so from IR).
  
  i was struck by the genuine outpouring of emotions against copying in the other thread, and assume that the same concern for ethical conduct will guide us in an endeavour to prevent unjust duplication of songs on the web.
  
  one argument that i have noticed is that there is no 'access' to the product in a particular market, say USA or Canada. but aren't we responsible for not creating this access by allowing an unreal market perception to persist?
  
  to just take this further, while for instance, a majority of IR lovers moan his declining 'market value', how many have made a concerted effort to buy (or demand from the dealer) original CD's/ tapes? will we not be creating substantial market value if as a combined audience, we demand from music companies that a collection of high-quality homogenous (i say this because many a times, people shy away from buying an IR collection when it has a 'senthoorappoove' followed by 'oram po')
  productions be brought out. there are innumerable fans here who could guide the selection of songs and perhaps, even write detailed sleeve-notes, just so IR's work is packaged and presented credibly. this is a side-issue borne out of my IR-centricity, but i think we need to seriously discuss the issues that the metallica/napster case present before us.
  
  any thoughts?
  
  
• From: you_know_who (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri May 5 04:48:29 EDT 2000
  
  oh no, this topic seems to be headed toward a worser igominy than the movie "ennuyir thozhan" (in coimbatore)- out of the theatre in 3 days, with bharatiraaja and bhagyaraj among the select few to see it!: can anyone save this now?
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Fri May 5 10:04:44 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh :-)
  
  Your proposal will also head towards a clamorous discussion with various people questioning the ability of code makers. IMO, only if the people listen to what others say, can this materialize. Else it will compare with shouting into the deaf ears of a parrot which does not alter what it says at any instant of time.
  
  
• From: Ravi (@ tide88.microsoft.com) on: Fri May 5 15:25:06 EDT 2000
  
  MS and Suresh
  :) - This is a very thorny issue.
  
  Here's my 2 cents worth and this is my PERSONAL opinion...
  
  The first accusation among the fans against record labels is the usual one you've heard hundreds of times (and you've mentioned in your post): That for one worthy song, I buy 9 crappy songs and pay $16 which is VERY high. They feel this is injustice and hence rally behind MP3. This very much applies to TFM.
  
  There is no solution to this other than a way to protect content and charge a fee for per stream use or download. I believe we are in a transitional phase - from traditional to internet-centric media distribution. Probably, in the future, we will have individual songs for download - the people who don't buy CDs because they think 9 songs are crap would download definitely now because they can get the 1 good song at a cheaper price => more volume and lesser cost.
  
  This business model is something every major streaming media technology company is working on to try and support. Once the record labels are happy that they can generate revenue out of it, things will change. We will slowly move into a more reasonable and understanding business model - one where buyers and sellers see that they both are getting value. Once the technology and business model is in place, everybody is happy.....
  
  ....until some other technology comes into picture. And the cycle goes on...
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri May 5 16:46:58 EDT 2000
  
  I am of the same opinion as Ravi. Some management consultant(s) is busy making money on advising labels on the new pricing model. I am told pirated CDs are selling for $150 in India when compared to the original $300 or so. So customers are worried about the markup, tax, # of songs, unlikable songs in a CD. I am sure similar concerns are here too. After all, how much money do students have that they can spend on CDs ???. It is also high time that record companies revisit the salaries they pay to the bands and in marketing/promotion.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Fri May 5 16:58:16 EDT 2000
  
  Ravi has put it very neatly. Just like
  cinema companies rallied against video tapes
  and then started seeing them as a source of
  revenue. The internet model can be beneficial.
  (One glitch though, internet streams can be
  recorded and redistributed, so even pay-per-use
  model may not work).
  
  I believe music
  must be freely available. Nowadays more and more musicians
  are getting into the scene with improving
  technology access and I wont be surprised if
  all music will be given free with money being
  made on the ads. (as in Radio). or in merchandise
  associated with band names.
  
  Until then, mp3 swapping and real audio streams are illegal!
  
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat May 6 01:11:08 EDT 2000
  
  MS, Ravi, Kiru, rjay...
  you don't know how thankful i am:)
  
  MS, i understand what u say - this very feeling has held me back many a time from contributing, but i thought this topic deserved some serious inputs from (i dread to use the word experts anymore:), mmm, people..
  
  Ravi, pay-per-download looks like a very ephemeral idea (in the context of TFM sites); why won't an annual subscription or pay-per-volume (collections of a set of songs. e.g, 12 duets of SPB/ SJ under IR) work?
  
  Kiru, $150 for a pirated CD? ayya, antha panathukku 100 CDs vaangalam.. seriously, an audio CD can be had for Rs.50 (yesterday, i saw a mella thirandhathu kathavu + payanangal mudivathillai combo brought from the bazaar by a colleague for, 50 bucks!) surely, a student that owns a CD player can pay atleast 150 bucks for a good-quality CD? the problem though is the mercenary attitude of most record companies that (as ravi also says) try to pass off the bad ones with the good, and ensure that the CDs never get sold!
  
  rjay
  i'm only vaguely familiar with the pitfalls ahead for pay-per-download models, but in the limited context of TFM (and in the many song lists that are freely accessible from this site), do you see any way out that ensures that some revenue reaches the MDs/ producers/ copyright holders?
  
  i know this is a sensitive, skating-on-thin-ice issue, but i honestly believe it merits some consideration atleast
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Sat May 6 15:30:54 EDT 2000
  
  There is an approximate way of stopping the proliferation of piracy through mp3s. The real juke box offers a way. There are two types of encoding available in jukebox.
  
  (1) open to all
  
  This type of encoding allows real jukebox on every computer to play the particular song. This is the way we get the rm files now. (.rmj is the extension for such files. The quality of these files is the same as mp3s. the only difference is that these files cannot be played by any player other than realplayer / jukebox)
  
  (2) Secure
  
  In this type, the files are encoded in such a way that the jukebox of the computer which encodes, is the only one which can play them. The other jukeboxes cannot play. (.rmx is the extension for such files. The quality of these files is the same as mp3s. the only difference is that these files cannot be played by any player other than realplayer / jukebox on that computer)
  
  There has to be a way to ensure that the mp3s (or high qulaity real audio files) can be played by those who pay to downlaod them. the option number (2) is just a primordial effort in that direction. In future we may expect softwares to be developed which can encrypt the downloads in a manner only the owner's computer can play the files. This may put a check on piracy.
  
  

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